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#1 chamatkaribaba

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 03:55 PM

This is a small piece of Constitutional Assembly Debates in India that took place while forming India’s Constitution. They are very great source of law and study of it gives us idea how the issues are debated in Assembly. This is just a piece. For full Reading, Follow the instruction provided in the Article.

The Name of the person is the one who is speaking and in brackets, it gives us idea where he came from and what is his designation. They are talking on very many issues that you know when you read it. The name and designation is not so important, focus on the texts and what they have to say on a particular topic.



Mr. Promatha Ranjan Thakur (Bengal: General): Sir, this is a list of fundamental rights which are only justiciable. I do not understand why economic fundamental rights should not be included in these justiciable rights. Economic rights are essential while framing a country’s constitution and they must also be made justiciable. I do not understand why mines, key industries and basic industries should not be nationalised. Moreover, this list of fundamental rights should have been considered in the light of reports of the Minorities Sub-committee. The Minorities Subcommittee sat only for two days and they could not go into details as regards safeguards required for minority communities. You know that Minority Sub-committee’s Report is very much connected with the list of fundamental rights.




Theft!
Theft!
And Theft!
No one is safe anywhere,
Thieves are rampant everywhere
Light is stolen,
Dreams are stolen,
Faith is stolen,
Mud is stolen,
Love is stolen,
Life and death are stolen
Alas! What can you expect from others,
When God himself is a thief?
In "Indra Jatra" by Dinesh Adhikary, Sajha Prakashan, 2051 B.S

#2 chamatkaribaba

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 04:05 PM

Another point to which I wish to refer is in relation to clause 6regarding ‘untouchability’ where it is said that-



“Untouchability in any form is abolished and the imposition of any disability Oil that account shall be an offence.”



I do not understand how you can abolish untouchability without abolishing the very caste system. Untouchability is nothing but the symptom of the disease, namely, the caste system. It exists as a matter of caste system. I do not understand how this, in its present form, can be allowed to stand in the list of fundamental rights. I think the House should consider this point seriously. Unless we can do away with the caste system altogether there is no use tinkering with the problem of untouchability superficially. I have nothing more to say. I hope the House will consider my suggestion seriously.

Mr. President: I take it that the Hon’ble Member does not wish to move his amendment.



Mr. Promatha Ranjan Thakur: I do not move my amendment.



Mr. Somnath Lahiri (Bengal: General): I agree with what. Pandit Kunzru suggested because it is rather difficult to make a fine distinction between what are justiciable rights and what are not. For instance, when we make a provision that people should have the right to work, that is, unemployment should not be allowed to exist in our country, it would be a social right. If you make it an inalienable provision of our fundamental rights, naturally it will have to be justiciable. Similarly, take the question of nationalisation of land. If we want to say that land belongs to the people and to no body else, that would be a social and fundamental right no doubt. But, nevertheless, it will also be a justiciable right, if that is tube given effect to. Therefore, it is rather arbitrary to make any fine distinction between what are justiciable rights and what are social and economic rights. Therefore, we would be in a better position to consider the whole thing if the full Report was forthcoming so that we might know what is in it. Otherwise, there is the danger that when we might put certain things as essential, we would be told that social and economic rights will come up not now but later on. Therefore, I support Pandit Kunzru’s suggestion for taking all these things together. I do not see any great hurry for getting these few fundamental rights passed just now.


Theft!
Theft!
And Theft!
No one is safe anywhere,
Thieves are rampant everywhere
Light is stolen,
Dreams are stolen,
Faith is stolen,
Mud is stolen,
Love is stolen,
Life and death are stolen
Alas! What can you expect from others,
When God himself is a thief?
In "Indra Jatra" by Dinesh Adhikary, Sajha Prakashan, 2051 B.S

#3 chamatkaribaba

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 04:07 PM

I was surprised to read this Report submitted by the Committee. Before this Report was submitted by the Committee, I got a circular from the Congress Party section of the Constituent Assembly enumerating certain rights. Many good points were contained in them. Afterwards, when we received this Report, we find that many of the good points which were mentioned in that circular have been omitted. Let me put it a little more strongly. I feel that many of these fundamental rights have been framed from the point of view of a police constable and many such provisions have been incorporated. Why? Because you will find that very minimum rights have been conceded and those too very grudgingly and these so-called rights are almost invariably followed by a proviso. Almost every article is followed by a proviso which takes away the right almost completely, because everywhere it is stated that in case of grave emergency these rights will be taken away. Now, Sir, what constitutes a ‘grave emergency’ God alone knows. It will depend on the executive obtaining at a particular period of government.



So, naturally anything that the party in power or the executive may not like would be considered a grave emergency and the very meagre fundamental rights which are conceded in this resolution will be whittled down. Therefore, it is necessary for us to see the whole thing together and see what people are going to get. I should like to mention one or two things as examples.



What should be our conception of fundamental rights ? Apart from the knowledge that we can gather from the experience of other countries, there is also the knowledge born out of our own experience, that is, there are certain rights which we have been denied in the past by an alien and autocratic government. We have come up against those difficulties. We want to incorporate every one of those rights which our people want to get. One vital thing which our people have been suffering from in the past has been the curtailment of the liberty of the press by means of securities and by other methods. The press has been crushed completely.



This is a thing against which every patriotic Indian is up in arms, including every congressman, and, therefore, in his heart of hearts every Indian feels that in a free India in order that people may feel freedom and act up to it, there should not be such drastic curtailment of liberties of the press. But what do we find? There is not even a mention of the liberty of the press in this whole list of fundamental rights submitted by the Committee, except a solitary mention made at one place that there will be liberty of expression. Sir, this is something which goes against our experience and must be protected.

Similarly, there is another thing that we have found all along that a Government which does not depend on the people and which rules the country by autocracy and by means of force, detains people without trial, without having to go through a judicial process.
Theft!
Theft!
And Theft!
No one is safe anywhere,
Thieves are rampant everywhere
Light is stolen,
Dreams are stolen,
Faith is stolen,
Mud is stolen,
Love is stolen,
Life and death are stolen
Alas! What can you expect from others,
When God himself is a thief?
In "Indra Jatra" by Dinesh Adhikary, Sajha Prakashan, 2051 B.S

#4 chamatkaribaba

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 04:19 PM

This is a thing against which Indians have been entertaining the bitterest feelings and they have been agitating against this from the Congress and every other platform. But in the fundamental rights that have been cooked up by this Committee we do not find this right. That is why I am constrained to say that these are fundamental rights from a police constable’s point of view and not from the point of view of a free and fighting nation. Here whatever right is given is taken away by a proviso.



Does Sardar Patel want even more powers than the British Government an alien Government, an autocratic Government which is against the people-needs to protect itself? Certainly not. Sardar Patel has the support of the overwhelming masses of the people and, therefore, he can do with much less powers to rule the country than an autocratic government would require. But here we find that none of the existing provisions of the powers of the executive has been done away with; rather in some respects those powers are sought to be increased.



And if some of the amendments are passed-specially that of Sri Rajagopalachariar- it will in certain cases be even worse than the conditions obtaining at. present. I will give one example. Here according to Patel a seditious speech is a punishable crime. If I say at any time in the future, or the Socialist Party says, that the Government in power is despicable, Sardar Patel, if he is in power at that time, will be able to put the Socialist Party people and myself in jail, though, as far as I know, even in England a speech, however seditious it may be, is never considered a crime unless an overt act is done.



These are the fundamental bases of the, fundamental rights of a free country, but here a seditious speech also is going to be an offence; and Sri Rajagopalachariar wants to go further. Sardar Patel would punish us if we make a speech, but Rajaji would punish us even before we have made the speech. He wants to prevent the making of the speech itself if in his great wisdom he thinks that the fellow is going to make a seditious speech.

Dr. B. Pattabhi Sitaramayya: Sir, we cannot anticipate amendments.



Mr. Somnath Lahiri: I will not discuss any more of the amendments.



We thus find that the feeling among Congressmen in general, as evidenced by this circular of the Constituent Assembly section of the Congress Party, is for extended fundamental and civic rights which will enable the country to function in a free manner and for political oppositions to grow. What is the necessity of fundamental rights in a bourgeois national democracy which you are trying to have ?



There one of the fundamental objects is that a political opposition must have full freedom to express its views, to draw its own conclusions and to say anything it likes. If I am in the opposition or if some one else is in the opposition it is certainly his business to say that the existing Government is despicable; otherwise he would not be in the opposition. Why should my right to say that be curtailed and at the same time we should assume that political opposition will grow and democracy will develop?

It cannot; it will have to depend on the sweet will and the tender mercies of the party in power or the executive in power. That is not the basis of democracy.


Theft!
Theft!
And Theft!
No one is safe anywhere,
Thieves are rampant everywhere
Light is stolen,
Dreams are stolen,
Faith is stolen,
Mud is stolen,
Love is stolen,
Life and death are stolen
Alas! What can you expect from others,
When God himself is a thief?
In "Indra Jatra" by Dinesh Adhikary, Sajha Prakashan, 2051 B.S

#5 chamatkaribaba

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 04:21 PM

Sir, I would request the Committee to consider the amendments very liberally and try their best to accommodate the amendments so that we can have really good and democratic fundamental rights which will give our people a real feeling of freedom and from which our country will go on gathering strength. Otherwise, if we lay down fundamental rights and then insert provisions in every clause for taking away those rights, we will simply make ourselves a laughing stock before the whole democratic world.



Mr. R. K. Sidhwa (C.P. and Berar: General): Sir, I will deal with Mr. Lahiri’s statement first. He has misinformed the House by stating that the Committee has absolutely ignored the economic rights and the fundamental rights in various aspects.



Sardar Patel in moving his motion made it clear that this is only a preliminary report or rather an interim report; the motion regarding economic and political rights is not here and will be taken up hereafter. Mr. Lahiri must know that we are not unmindful about this matter. We are much more keen on these economic and political rights of the citizens than he imagines; and therefore to say that those rights should have been presented to us now in this document and that failing that we would be making a laughing-stock of ourselves to the world is not fair to this House.



Now, coming to Dr. Kunzru, I was really very sorry to find him stating that some of the clauses in this statement do not come within the purview of fundamental rights or justiciable rights. If any one has studied the various constitutions of other countries he will find that there are chapters and chapters and clauses and clauses dealing with economic, commercial and trading rights of the people. And for Dr. Kunzru to state that this is not a fundamental right or a justiciable right is not fair to this House. I will quote a few paragraphs from some constitutions to show that commerce and trade and economics are considered justiciable fundamental rights.



In Germany, Part 2 of Art. 138 says :

“Property and other rights of unions in respect of -a property devoted for public purposes, social and commercial, are guaranteed.”

Then in Art. 151 it says : continued…………..

Interested Readers are advised to read it from: http://164.100.24.20...ndeb/vol3p2.htm



The whole Speech can be viewed in http://164.100.24.20...deb/debates.htm

If you are student of Constitutional Law and if you are interested in constitutional law making, these debates are very invaluable sources of law. They deal with very delicate issues making very very find distinctions.

Try to Understand it.
Theft!
Theft!
And Theft!
No one is safe anywhere,
Thieves are rampant everywhere
Light is stolen,
Dreams are stolen,
Faith is stolen,
Mud is stolen,
Love is stolen,
Life and death are stolen
Alas! What can you expect from others,
When God himself is a thief?
In "Indra Jatra" by Dinesh Adhikary, Sajha Prakashan, 2051 B.S

#6 kslsanjeeb9

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 09:56 AM

QUOTE(chamatkaribaba @ Jul 25 2007, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sir, I would request the Committee to consider the amendments very liberally and try their best to accommodate the amendments so that we can have really good and democratic fundamental rights which will give our people a real feeling of freedom and from which our country will go on gathering strength. Otherwise, if we lay down fundamental rights and then insert provisions in every clause for taking away those rights, we will simply make ourselves a laughing stock before the whole democratic world.



Mr. R. K. Sidhwa (C.P. and Berar: General): Sir, I will deal with Mr. Lahiri’s statement first. He has misinformed the House by stating that the Committee has absolutely ignored the economic rights and the fundamental rights in various aspects.



Sardar Patel in moving his motion made it clear that this is only a preliminary report or rather an interim report; the motion regarding economic and political rights is not here and will be taken up hereafter. Mr. Lahiri must know that we are not unmindful about this matter. We are much more keen on these economic and political rights of the citizens than he imagines; and therefore to say that those rights should have been presented to us now in this document and that failing that we would be making a laughing-stock of ourselves to the world is not fair to this House.



Now, coming to Dr. Kunzru, I was really very sorry to find him stating that some of the clauses in this statement do not come within the purview of fundamental rights or justiciable rights. If any one has studied the various constitutions of other countries he will find that there are chapters and chapters and clauses and clauses dealing with economic, commercial and trading rights of the people. And for Dr. Kunzru to state that this is not a fundamental right or a justiciable right is not fair to this House. I will quote a few paragraphs from some constitutions to show that commerce and trade and economics are considered justiciable fundamental rights.



In Germany, Part 2 of Art. 138 says :

“Property and other rights of unions in respect of -a property devoted for public purposes, social and commercial, are guaranteed.”

Then in Art. 151 it says : continued…………..

Interested Readers are advised to read it from: http://164.100.24.20...ndeb/vol3p2.htm



The whole Speech can be viewed in http://164.100.24.20...deb/debates.htm

If you are student of Constitutional Law and if you are interested in constitutional law making, these debates are very invaluable sources of law. They deal with very delicate issues making very very find distinctions.

Try to Understand it.



Thank you for the information .
Management is Art & Science of Getting Law as Results , this process results in Sanjibalisation .




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